Old Catholic Benedictine, Old Catholic or just plain Protestant?

 

Dear Eminence,
        I thought that you might enjoy reading the following, they are some recent postings to the Old Catholic Benedictine Website concerning the ordination of women to the priesthood, I have placed them in the order which they were originally posted:

 

Apostle1.com's Commentary & Opinion

Understanding Old Catholicism, Old Roman Catholicism and even Old Catholic Benedictine ... one has to remember that the whole branch of the Old Catholic movement, even if they call themselves "Independent" ... thrives on the core object of their existence which is based in the Declaration of Utrecht.  Without adherence to that Declaration in faith and practice including the ancient Seven Oecumenical Councils to which the Declaration does not denounce whatsoever, one cannot truly be "Old Catholic," "Old Roman Catholic," "Independent Old Catholic, "Independent Old Roman Catholic," or even "Catholic".

 

Yet, when researching and discovering the root and branch of "Old Catholicism" from which the "Old Catholic," "Old Roman Catholic," and "Old Catholic Benedictine" come from... one cannot forget that it too is based on historical truth and must therefore conform to and maintain the root and branch according to norms of historical truth. 

 

One should have more respect for the group who call themselves "http://www.reformedcatholicchurch.org" than to go by the name of "Old Catholic," "Old Roman Catholic," "Independent Old Catholic" and "Old Catholic Benedictine" because these people have imbibed in all things heretical bound which is bound up in and with the Protestant cults of Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witness and even the Synchrestic Ecumenism of the Council of Churches, International Council of Churches and worse.  There is nothing "Old Catholic" about them except that they dress as "Old Catholic"  and use a form of "Catholic" liturgy.  It might be better, according to several opinions, that they call themselves INDEPENDENT CATHOLIC and INDEPENDENT CATHOLIC BENEDICTINE.  At least with a name such as that the true "Old Catholics" be they "Old Roman Catholic" or not... would not be tarnished so much as it is presently.

 

The person being referred to as "Fr. Weeks" is one of the major players as a sort-of 'patriarch' of the "Old Catholic Benedictine" group whose heart has always been in something of the right place, but assuredly has never departed that from which he grew up in which is PENTECOSTALISM whom all true CATHOLICS (be they of the Roman Jurisdiction, Old Catholic and Old Roman Catholic) reject as heretical because it goes against the belief, life, faith and practice of what it means to be "Catholic" in spirit and truth. 

 

As strong and harsh as the opinion may be from one individual of a rather large and Old Catholic jurisdiction may be.. describes this particular group... calling them the "Hezbollah" of Catholicism itself for their leader's and members "bastardization" of the faith, life and teachings of all that is truly "Old Catholic"... Hmmm, rather thought provoking indeed!

 

Western Orthodoxy could more easily be accepting of such Truth about those wild Benedictine who have bastardized "Catholic" truth than to accept them by their hiding under the skirts of being something they are not in faith because of their obliterating the ancient Seven Oecumenical Councils which all true CATHOLICS, East and West are bound to.

 

Female priests, flaming gays, etc. are not morally and spiritually acceptable to all true Catholic jurisdictions.  Celibacy is not a pick and choose option for those who are "Benedictine". True Benedictine (male and female) regardless of their former lifestyles are and must maintain the "celibacy" code of life inherent in the Rule of Saint Benedict without regard for their being priest, monk or nun.  The Old Catholic Benedictine that this particular group represents are not celibate according to the norms and are not "Catholic" according to the ancient Seven Ecumenical Councils.

 

It is recalled that their leader, Bishop Weeks, once stated openly that one did not have to maintain an adherence to the ancient Seven Oecumenical Councils at all.  His belief, according to his so-called research, allowed for the divesting of them while still calling himself and those with him, "Old Catholic" and "Old Catholic Benedictine".  Yet, he never supplied any documentation to prove his point when asked.

 

The "Catholicism" being espoused is a "Cafeterial Catholicism" outside the norms of what it means to be CATHOLIC.  This is what Protestants do, especially PENTECOSTALS, Jehovah's Witness, and Mormons along with Church of Christ and other "catholic" hating Protestant groups or cults.  Bishop Weeks is following true to form from within it would appear according to some opinions.

 

The American Orthodox Church - North American Orthodox Church, maintain an Old Catholic presence, including Old Catholic Benedictine; with adherence to the norms, beliefs, theology and liturgies of the jurisdictions of ancient times.  

 

What this particular group is, most certainly does not fit the "Old Catholic" criteria whatsoever, even with their calling themselves as "Independent".  When one is "Independent" - it is much similar to that of the present day Sedevacantists.  They, at least, adhere to all things CATHOLIC according to the ancient traditions or practices of belief, etc. associated with them. 

 

All these various groups or jurisdictions have done is to create a human political separation from the main root, Roman Catholicism, because of changes at the time in history from the path originally being followed.  Thus, their separation is a political stand in part due to the changes in faith and belief that the parent (Rome) had taken as a departure in both administration and faith practices.  This is basically true of the Utrecht group, founders of Old Catholicism.  But that is not the truth for this particular group of "Old Catholic Benedictine".  Thus the purpose of their existence would more correctly be defined as a group of vagabonds who cannot and will not accept true Catholic authority according to the norms of the jurisdiction they claim to belong to.  This group is a "Cafeteria" style of believers where anything is okay... an anything goes group.

 

It is likely they would be accepted by the "Reformed Catholic Church" where all the things they are accepting of, is acceptable to them.  However, here again is the one issue that they hate to commit themselves to.... AUTHORITY! 

 

Pray for them and those like them... "Authority" to scripture (not self interpretation with man-like analytical wrangling of words and phrases so as to change initial truths to that which becomes acceptable such as the Roman Jurisdiction of the Catholic Church does rather well)... and to the "Authority" of the ancient Seven Oecumenical Councils... or "Authority" to a primary God pleasing and people accepting head or primate. 

 

1) Your thoughts were very mind provoking.

 

I believe the problem lies that the early church, clergy wise was male dominated and in the present Roman Catholic, Old Roman Catholic and many Old Catholic churches, that practice is still held.

 

While the female gender performs many wonderful services, (i.e. Nuns, etc.) The last supper during the original consecration of the body and blood of Our Lord, men were dominate.

 

That holds true today.  I know that there are many women would like to be priests, but history does not support that. 

 

The greatest representative of the historical church represents the wonder work that women have performed.

 

Unfortunately, the priesthood is for the male only.  Pray for the good women whom the church in their individual capacity.

 

 With great respect,
 Rt.. Rev. Msgr. Martin Murphy
ORCC


2)  On the issue of female clergy and femalepriests - the Old Catholic Church in Europe ordains female priests.  If you claim to be Old Catholic how can you hold otherwise?

 

To claim to be Old Catholic and refuse to ordain female priests, is like claiming to be Roman Catholic but rejecting authority of the Pope.

 

Are you thus Old Catholic?

Bishop George Le Mesurier

Independent Old Catholic Church of America

 

3)  Amen  - precisely!   Not to mention Old Catholic Church (Utrecht) practice.

 

There are specific teachings and doctrine and discipline of the Old Catholic Church movement, and you are part or not part of that movement.  Personal views are not a factor.

 

Pope John Paul II once stated....The [Roman] Catholic Church is not a buffet.  Amen, neither is the Old Catholic Church Movement.

Bishop George

 

4.) Hi, Fr Weeks.

I'm concerned that the discussion on the list is starting to be political, unloving, and self-righteous again. 

If there is no longer space on your list for someone who believes that some women priests are more the representatives of Jesus in his church than hate-filled old grumpy people with penises, please remove me from that list.

If you don't have room for someone who actually lives in the 21st century and who does not believe the minority-viewpoint of 13th century scholasticism about the time when fetuses have souls injected into them, please spare me the diatribes of ignorant parochial school products who wouldn't know a womb from peach cobbler. 

 And, if you folks can't get a life and bring new people to Christ, instead of turning off at least one of  your company from wanting to continue the association, please stop sullying the name "Old Catholic."

Right now these people just sound "Old."

Aloha, Bro Dave


As you can see, only the first priest, Fr. Murphy, is the only one of their group that is opposed to women priests. I believe he is also the only one of that group who is opposed to same-sex marriage..

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    Yes, our Metropolitan Archbishop, +Joseph Thaddeus, SSJt., Ph.D. strongly defends the Seals of the Confessional for such leads to true Repentance in thought, word and deed whereby the penitent is required to make amends, where possible, to seek forgiveness of those harmed by his actions whether real or imagined, and to give his forgiveness to those who have harmed him before taking the Holy Body and Blood in the Eucharist, Jesus the Christ.  The reality of this understanding is bound up in and with the findings for which cause he, himself, had been character assassinated by his detractors who claim the courts prevented him from breaking the Seals of the Confessional which is not the truth at all.... Click here to see what another bishop's findings are...

 

    The workings of Holy Spirit will not be daunted by those who attempt to cause disruption!  It is for these and other reasons that you are urged to read what true repentance and forgiveness means for real "Christians".

 

   "It would be better to have ten (10) true repentant X-felons who ask for and give true forgiveness than it would be to have one (1) non-x-felon or common person whose self-righteousness exceeds even the Pharisees, Sadducees, the gossip mongers, slanderers and un-repentant; for the repentant x-felon understands the true meaning of the Church's purpose as being the spiritual hospital." (siq) +Joseph Thaddeus, OSB, SSJt., Ph.D., Metropolitan Archbishop, Archabbot, Primate

 

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Is Christianity At The Cross Roads?

 

As The World Goes, So Goes The Church

 

Anomalies in Ecclesiology of Contemporary Orthodox Churches

 

Attempts at Coming to An Understanding of Orthodox Catholic Christianity

 

A Response to two articles: “Pedophilia Condoned (Approved) By Islam” & “Dalai Lama With Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox and Others"

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GRAMMATA ON THE MEANING OF CANONICAL

 

The Definition and Meaning of "Orthodoxy"
 

Orthodox Catholic Christian Fasts, Feasts, and Daily Prayers

See the Main Page for Weekly-Daily listings/Commemoration's Page

To Change the Nation and the World

A Dictionary of Orthodox Terminology

PROPER ATTIRE FOR ORTHODOX CLERGY

A Spiritual Hospital For Sinners

The Faithful and Clergy
(Clergy: Monks, Nuns, Priests and Bishops)

Our Clergy Application - Agreement

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